It has been suggested that SDSM&T offer an undergraduate mammalian paleontology course. I'm creating this forum thread to discuss it. Would you be interested in taking it? would it provide a benefit? What does everyone think?
Paleo Club Forum » Fuzzy Wuzzy
Undergraduate Mammals Class
(13 posts)-
Jason Carr
Key MasterPosted 10 months ago # -
Benjamin Zalneraitis
MemberI would be interested in taking a mammalian paleontology course. Considering where we're taking classes, it would be significantly relevant. It would also help those who don't necessarily know what they want to research when they get through to their senior year. People keep asking me what I'm interested in when I get there, and I honestly have no idea. Between taking the dinosaurs class and everyone telling me that dinosaurs are rather boring, I really have no idea what's going on. Being able to have more basic knowledge on mammalian paleontology would let me make a more informed decision.
Posted 10 months ago # -
Michelle P
MemberHaha, well I'll protest the "dinosaurs are rather boring" part, but let me first respond to what Jeff Martin posted in his reply via e-mail, as: "Yes, I would like a class dedicated to mammals. I was just talking to somebody about this not too long ago as well. I think it was Ed and Jason Carr. As well as a botany, and zoology class. Maybe even a microbiology. Possibly"
The positive news is that A) micropaleontology is/was offered as a class here. With Dr. Jim Fox having retired the status of that class is up in the air from what I understand. Either someone new will have to be found to teach it as a separate course, or it could be incorporated into the invert paleo course, where Dr. Fox briefly mentioned a few key points on the subject when I took invert. paleo with him. B) the botany and zoology (well, at least herpetology) courses currently being offered in Spearfish are being considered for distance education, as are the museum courses offered here that Sally Shelton is currently teaching. I'd very much like to see a botany course offered here in some form, given our under-appreciated paleobotany collection.
Dinosaur related courses are surprisingly common in colleges, and often cater to non-science majors as a way for them to fill science course requirements in their programs. This is because, well, who doesn't like dinosaurs? These courses are popular and even schools without large geology programs offer them. Unfortunately mammals don't seem to share the same popularity. Although there isn't currently a course dedicated specifically to the fuzzy guys, I should remind undergrad students that they can take the Vertebrate Paleontology couse as undergraduates, for graduate credit. There is also always the opportunity to delve into the warmbloods with an independent study course.
LnkZ10, if it's a senior research project you're looking for, my advice is to keep poking around the museum, and get into collections when you can to see what's being packed. There's material in there that current faculty and students have never seen before, and that offers lots of new opportunities for research. I hate to say it, but because there's so much more mammal material in the collections than dinosaur, the options for research projects are likewise greater. Regardless of whether you go with mammals, dinosaurs, or heck fish, birds, plants, or inverts for research - nothing beats familiarity with the scope of collections to figure out what you want to do.
Posted 10 months ago # -
Jason Testin
MemberI look at it this way... why don't we have one?
We can't have a class on everything, but we should have the choice to have a more well rounded selection. I think invert should be a required class, but maybe instead of dinosaurs being required, it could be 1 option to fill a requirement. Other options might be a mammal class, a paleobotany class, or others, maybe on a rotating availability. You're still not going to make everyone happy, and you can't hit everything. Like Ben said if the movement at the school is "anti-Dinosaur", why are we required to take that class?
Dinosaurs got most of us interested in paleo I'm sure, but we cann't ALL study Dinos, but unless you discover mammals,fish, mosasaurs, pterosaurs or whatever on your own, the curriculum doesn't realy expose you.
I also know (from experience) that puting together a whole bunch of "options" could put the person/people that try to make it happen in the crazy house, but one at a time could be do-able.
If a mammal class were to happen while I'm still here, put me at the top of the sign-up sheet!
Posted 10 months ago # -
taguss
MemberSpeaking as a first-semester undergrad Paleo student, I'm not all that sure what I want to go into. Like LnkZ10, people keep asking what I want to specialize in and talking about what they want to specialize in, yet, at this point, I don't know for sure. I'm also not sure what classes are here. I would love a chance to have a class over mammals because it could help me possibly decide on what I ultimately want to do, and if nothing else, it's just more information and more chances to learn, not to mention fun. I think it would be an all around great idea and I would be on the top of the list too.
Posted 10 months ago # -
Jeff Martin
ModeratorNot only having these classes would help you decide with what it is you want to specialize in, but at this point for you taguss, but for you to get a nice big foundation of information about all areas of paleontology. Dinos, mammals, botany, birds, and of course all of the geo classes, you mustn't forget those. Having knowledge in all of these aspects will help you do everything and anything that when the time comes, you can do for your job. Not all paleos end up doing paleo... some end up doing petrology.
And Michelle quoted me earlier, "Yes, I would like a class dedicated to mammals. I was just talking to somebody about this not too long ago as well. I think it was Ed and Jason Carr. As well as a botany, and zoology class. Maybe even a microbiology. Possibly" - Jeff Martin
And what Sally said in her email, "Mammalogy, herpetology and ornithology per se (the modern vertebrate biology courses, sans ichthyology) are offered at BHSU and we can't co-opt those (we have looked into this and it is frustrating, but they have enough trouble getting those classes to make). SDSMT students CAN take these at BHSU, and the only problem would be the commute, but if enough people were doing this we might be able to arrange carpooling. Just a thought.
Now, fossil mammals would be a whole new course, and one that I too think is overdue. Let's continue the dialogue about this." - Sally Shelton
I guess in the next couple years here, I think I would be interested in carpooling with anyone to take these classes... I wonder if we had enough people interested and were able to take these classes (say 15 or so), would SDSMT give us one of their school suburbans? and them pay for the gas? Just a food for thought.
And Randy said, "Tech currently offers a Microbiology class. I have taken it. Sookie Bang is the instructor and it is not a bad class."
Thank you Randy, I think I may look into taking that class and see what the pre-reqs are.
Posted 10 months ago # -
Jason Carr
Key MasterI'm reposting Darrin's e-mail on this subject from the listserv (he's responding to Jason Testin's original post):
Pagnac, Darrin C. to Jason, paleoclubmembe.
And a good thought, Jason. I think it would be great to have a paleo-mammals class, and other universities have done so as well (I believe Nebraska has had an "Elephants of the Past" course on their listing for quite some time).
I foresee two main problems with this, however. The first is implementation. As geology undergraduates your coarseload is already extremely full. I know this because I currently sit on the curriculum committee and have just helped implement some changes to the curriculum. I do not know where in the already jam-packed schedule we would place an additional mammals course. The load is not just on the students either. Pretty much every faculty member is stretched to the limit with teaching obligations, and new classes are being demanded all the time.
Second, and most importantly, as undergraduates, your primary focus should be on becoming well-trained geologists first. As such, I would rather see you spending your elective credits on courses that will round you out as geologists and make you more employable. I refer to such courses as Well Logging, Remote Sensing, or some of the GIS courses. You are all much more likely to find gainful employment by getting these courses under your belt then spending time on a watered down version of a course you will almost certainly get as a graduate student.
The dinosaurs course is a recruitment tool. It draws non-majors into geology. A mammals course would simply not work as well at that task.
All this being said, I will try to come up with some options for inserting a paleo-mammals course into the curriculum and will keep you all posted.
Excellent suggestion.
Darrin Pagnac, Ph.D.
Haslem Postdoctoral Fellow
Museum of Geology
501 East Saint Joseph Street
Rapid City, SD 57701
Phone (Office): (605) 394-2469"Speak useful words or be silent."-- Havamal
Posted 10 months ago # -
Jason Carr
Key MasterWayne asked me to repost this:
I too feel that a mammals class would be a good thing. however, we have to remember that this is a geology undergraduate degree in a geology program. Undergraduates need to focus on their geology classes first. In order to be useful paleontologists, we absolutely must be Geologists, then paleontologists. To quote Malcolm McKenna: "We are first and foremost stratigraphers." This is how all undergraduates in geology have to start thinking. Without the rocks, fossils make no sense and are but silent motionless actors on an empty stage. It would be difficult to push a formal mammals class through in Geology, and probably a similar situation in chemistry, which controls the Bio courses. A better alternative would be to offer a one credit topics course on mammals. Now as for the content, it would have to be something we sat down and outlined, both grad, undergrad and those in charge. Had I the time I would love to put something like this together.
The other alternative is that undergrads who are interested, pick up a book or two on the group you are interested in and read through them. I can think of a dozen books off the top of my head by various authors on many major mammal groups. As a researcher in marine reptiles, I have never had a class on the topic, not one. Everything I know about mosasaurs, plesiosaurs etc, I have gathered on my own. I strongly suggest that upperclassmen in geol/paleo begin doing the same. Lowerclassmen, I suggest should find a suitable survey type textbook such as Pough et al's "Vertebrate Life" and begin their search for interesting subject matter there.
I do not want anyone to think that I am a naysayer on this, because I for one would love to see classes like this, however, I am a realist, and I think that if you are interested in these groups you must start the journey on your own. This is how you will learn prepare to become a better graduate student, as well as become a better researcher. If you are not sure where to begin your search, ask a senior grad student they may be able to help you.
I hope this has been of some help, again, please do not see this post as unsupportive, but as a reminder of what your primary responsibility at this point in your education should be. I am certainly willing to help anyone who comes to me, and have already helped a number of students locate papers, from both my personal collection as well as journals and papers which are not possible to get from our crappy library.(Which I hope to change because I am on the Library Improvement Committee.)
See you all soon,
WayneWayne A. Thompson
Geology and Geological Engineering Ph.D Student
South Dakota School of Mines
501 East St. Joseph St
Rapid City, South Dakota 57701Posted 10 months ago # -
Jason Testin
MemberAlong the lines of what Wayne said, I did pick up a book about mammals while at SVP, and have been finding it very interesting. I would recommend it to anyone who wants to get an intro to early Cenozoic mammals.
The Beginning of the Age of Mammals, by. Kenneth D. Rose
Posted 10 months ago # -
taguss
MemberIs there a place around here that you could pick up books that you only borrow, not buy? At the moment, I don't have the money nor the room in my dorm to buy and permanently store extra books on many subjects. I would love to read some in my spare time though.
Posted 10 months ago # -
Jason Carr
Key Mastertaguss, I've opened a new topic thread devoted to the subject of reference books and where to get them here http://paleoclub.com/bbpress/topic.php?id=27#post-89
Posted 10 months ago # -
Jason Testin
MemberThe thought has come to me, based largely on this discussion, that we could do it ourselves. Along with the other thread on reference books, we could form a group, similar to the "Journal Group". Pick a good reference, like say The Dinosauria or The Evolution of Artiodactyla. There are two options at this point, we could all read said book and say, 1 or 2 chapters at a time get together and discuss it.
Or, if I might go back into my former life as a high school science teacher (oh the horror ;) ) we could "jig-saw" the book. Jig-Sawing would basically be each person would get a chapter or two to become "experts on" they would read that chapter(s) of the book, and ideally do a little extra research to round it out. Said person would then put something together (probably a power point) and "teach" the group about their topic. this way, we all benefit by learning about paleo topics we might not otherwise learn about AND we get well needed public speaking practice! this way we could cover more books/topics with out having the read the WHOLE book ourselves :) cause I don't know about you all but I don't always have a lot a free time to read a load of books!Posted 10 months ago # -
Jason Testin
MemberIf anyone is interested in an undergrad "journal club" I would be up for that too.
I kind of tried to put together something like this over the summer, after the disappointment that was GGT's Dinosaurs class, there i said it, the man ALMOST made me hate Dinosaurs... but it never happened, so i read the Dinosauria myself :P
but if anyone one is interested in siting down and discussing journal papers or reading a book together let me know, I would even be willing to take the lead if no one else does. Since I did start this mess :)
Posted 10 months ago #
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